Yong-Soo Chung: How to Build a Personal Holding Company

Tim Stoddart: All right, here we are. What's up, everyone? My name is Tim Stoddard. Welcome to the Copyblogger podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest today is Young Soo Chung. Thank you so much for coming on the show, man. I'm really excited to talk to you.
Yong-Soo Chung: Tim, I'm so pumped to be here, man. I'm so glad that we connected. And, you know, I listened to your pod before and it's an honor to be here.

Tim Stoddart: Thank you. I feel the same. It's an honor to have the opportunity to talk to you. So so we're going to jump right in. You and I are similar. in that we are both spending our time and our hours and our efforts in building a personal holdings company. What does that mean? Could you elaborate on that? What does that even mean to build a personal holdings company?

Yong-Soo Chung: Absolutely. So a personal holding company to me is essentially you take your hobbies that you have and you turn them into projects at first and then eventually businesses. It's almost like a lifestyle business 2.0 because what's happened here is You know, before I remember in like 10, 15 years ago, it was like the rage is like all lifestyle business, you know, for our work week, all that stuff. But what's happened now is like we have so many tools now, no code AI. And that allows us to actually have more than just one. And so you can have multiple you know, businesses going at the same time based on your hobbies. And so really at the core of a personal holding company is like you really want to just live your life the way you want to and just create businesses around those things that you spend time on, those things that you love doing. And so it's almost like you're not really working at all. It's kind of just like. You're just doing your thing and you're getting paid to do it. And so I find this concept really fascinating because I've been doing it myself for the past eight years and I didn't even know that I was doing it. Tim, like I stumbled upon the idea of a personal holding company on X. And then when I like dug more into it, I'm like, wait, this is exactly what I've done for the past eight years. And like, when I talk to other entrepreneurs, like they're same thing, like I've been doing this or they say, I want to do this. How do I do it? Right. So it's been a really fun journey so far.

Tim Stoddart: It's funny that you say that because my realization was very similar. I had always just built. media companies around a particular space. That's how I got started. And then of course I built the agency and then forget his name. He's one of the founders of Morning Brew.

Yong-Soo Chung: Austin Reeve or Alex.

Tim Stoddart: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alex. Yeah. I saw one of his tweets or posts, I think we're supposed to call it now, where he said, I'm obsessed with this idea of building a personal holdings company. And I thought, That's what I've already been doing. And like, I didn't realize I was doing it. I was just creating projects and then subsequent, subsequent revenue streams built around what I enjoy doing. And I loved how you talked about. It's not really working because I've been accused a few times of, of being a workaholic. Right. And I admit that there are times in my life where I have to check myself, but the part that it's so hard for me to explain to people is I never actually feel like I'm working. I always feel like I'm playing. I always feel like I'm having a good time. And so people say like, why don't you take a break? And I'm like, and do what? Like do something else that I just, I love to do. Why wouldn't I just keep doing the thing that I love to do? Right. So, uh, so yeah, I'm, I'm relating to you in that regard. Tell me a little bit about, about how you feel like it's a lifestyle business 2.0.

Yong-Soo Chung: Yeah. So, you know, back. 15 years ago, the whole concept of before I work week with Tim Ferriss, I mean, that was all about, you know, honestly, I think that was the first wave of this concept of leverage that's really been popularized in the last five years or so. Obviously, Naval had that really famous tweet that went viral. But essentially, what's happened here is the forms of leverage. So there's, you know, there's social media, there's like the no code tools slash AI. And these are, these are digital forms of leverage. But then you have analog forms of leverage, which is labor and capital. And so if you think about it, you know, the past hundred years or so, like the Rockefellers and the Vanderbilt's, they only use labor and media or sorry, labor and capital, right. As leverage. Yeah. But now we have all four forms and the digital side of it is really accelerating to the point where now, like. Anyone can really build anything really fast. And so what you've got now is like this acceleration of technology and acceleration of people coming on and like building personal brands. So more people are accessible now. You can make partnerships. And there's so much to do here. I really think that it's allowed anyone. Anyone can just build a company now using digital leverage and then eventually moving on from digital leverage and moving off from solopreneurship into labor and capital.

Tim Stoddart: I want to get your viewpoint on this because I've thought about this a lot and I've, I've talked about before when Ethan and I were doing the podcast about these different forms of leverage, because that whole concept from Naval was really impactful for me as well. And. When I read it, and I think when a lot of other people read it, they think, oh yeah, digital leverage is what's most important. And so they spend all of their time building an audience. And the longer I've been doing it, I've actually kicked back against that idea because I have found that no matter how much I grow personally, let's just call it a personal brand right through my audience. I always hit a block. I always hit a roadblock until I can bring on teammates that either know how to do something I don't know how to do or can manage something that I know how to manage and it's that I don't know how to manage, excuse me. And I've actually come to think that labor, I know that labor is kind of a, it's like a little cringy because you're just itemizing people, right? And so I usually call it a team, but I've come to think that my team, is actually the most important part of this whole ability for me to create a portfolio where I own equity in, in many different projects and, and create many different revenue streams. How does that bounce off of you when I say that?

Yong-Soo Chung: I mean, that is core principle of a personal holding company that resonates deeply because, um, you know, what I, what I really say that. Yeah, you know, I do think that, you know, so I have three companies right now, and I don't operate day to day on any of them. I have people operating, you know, managing the P&L, they manage the staff. I mean, everything is works in a system and they're handling it. And obviously I check in with them. It's not a total delegation where I'm not even involved in decision-making, but I try to push off decision-making as much as possible on them and really explain to them why I make decisions that way. Because You know, it's really delegating tasks. You know, you can go beyond that. You can delegate decision making. You can delegate leadership, culture, everything. And so my job as a leader is to always be, you know, pushing things down to my employees and empowering them. Right. And so and that's what they want to. They don't want to be, you know, some person just sitting behind a desk and you know, just doing these like boring tasks. They they want ownership. They want empowerment. And so when you give them that opportunity, they're so excited and they're like, wow, like no one has given me this much trust and empowerment before. Like this is amazing. And so, you know, for me, it's really about, you know, when you want to leverage yourself as an entrepreneur, you really have to create others who are going to be like, almost like your, I don't know, like your partners in a business and you're just kind of like raising them up together. And that's how you're going to be able to scale yourself. And you're not going to be able to do that, you know, by yourself. At some point you will be the bottleneck of your business, right?

Tim Stoddart: Hey there, it's Tim. And I need to take a moment to tell you about this show's sponsor. It's a product called Hype Fury. When I was able to speak to Yannick, who is the CMO, one of the founding partners of Hype Fury, and he agreed to sponsor the show. I was so thrilled. And the reason is because I have personally used Hype Fury for the last three years and it has allowed me to build my social media following and my personal brand to over 70,000 followers. I could not have done it without Hype Fury. And I really, really mean that. I use this product every day. And it's added so much to my business and to my life. So Hypefury is a social media scheduling tool. It has three main features that I think separates it from every other tool. One, it, it allows you to quickly create content and schedule them. So it's a very nuanced feature, but it's so helpful. Basically, I sit down at my desk in the morning and I type out my tweet. I type out my LinkedIn posts and then all I do is I hit enter. And Hypefury schedules it at the opportune time on Twitter and on LinkedIn. I don't have to think about it any more than that. All I have to do is sit down and create my tweets, create my posts, hit enter, and Hypefury does all the work for me. Second, Hypefury makes it so that you can easily create threads. And threads have been the biggest value add for me in growing my following. So threads really helped me grow my following on Twitter and those threads format themselves into longer form LinkedIn posts on LinkedIn. It's actually kind of funny. I made a video about this not too long ago about how, yes, like you want to create threads on Twitter. You want to be a thread boy, because I'd say like 80% of my growth on both Twitter and LinkedIn have been from threads and long form posts. And I wouldn't have been able to format. any of this without using Hypefury. And then third, Hypefury is really good for keeping you inspired. So what it does is it, it shows you some of your most popular tweets and your most popular posts. And it basically gives you information. It gives you inspiration as to what your audience is looking for and what they're most actively engaged in. So you're never sitting at the computer thinking, Oh man, like what am I going to say today? What, you know, what kind of content am I going to create today? It's constantly feeding you new ideas, new inspiration, and it allows you to, to quickly create this content so that you can continuously get yourself out there, continuously build your brand. And most importantly, turn that social media following into newsletter subscribers. So through Hype Fury, I've been able to grow my personal email list, timstodds.com to over 30,000 followers. That's turned into a business within itself. It's really helped me grow the copy blogger newsletter. We're at 110,000 followers right now. A whole lot of that is also because of Hype Fury. So please, this is a product that I use every single day. I personally vouch for it. You can check it out at hypefury.com. H Y P E F U R Y.com. If you have any problems with it, you can send me a DM on Twitter and I'm sure I can convince you as to why it will add value to your life. So hypefury.com. Thank you so much to hypefury for sponsoring the show and let's get back to the episode. I want to definitely talk about. the specific companies in your holdings company. But before we do, I, I just, I need to double click on this for a little bit, because I feel this is, it's like therapeutic for me a little bit to sit here and talk to you about this. Because sometimes people ask me like, what do you do when I meet new people? They say, what do you do? And I'm like, oh, I'm an entrepreneur. And I don't know exactly how to explain the fact that like, I make loom videos all day and I communicate through Slack and I just like delegate tasks. Um, and it's almost like that within itself has become the most critical skillset that I have other than writing, but I write just because I enjoy it, you know, and so I kind of forced myself to stay in there just to keep those muscles flexed, right. But I wouldn't have to do it anymore if I didn't want to. And so, gosh, I don't even have a question here. I'm just, I relate to you so much when, when you talk about these things, because so much of my day is spent managing and delegating. And I love the word empowering, right? Like it's almost like my role at this point is to educate and empower people. And it makes me feel really good. Does that make you feel good?

Yong-Soo Chung: Yeah. I mean, your role as a leader is to create other leaders like yourself, right? So your company is ultimately a reflection of your values. Like as crazy as it sounds, literally like the company that you own, all the, you know, the companies within your personal holding company, like that's just a reflection of yourself. They're small versions of yourself and your values. And so when you put leaders in here, they look up to you like, hey, Tim, what do I do now? How should I handle the situation? And you're guiding them, in a way, because they trust you completely. And they're bought into your vision. They're bought into your values. And so you're literally creating mini Tims within these companies. and you're helping them achieve and get them to the next level. And like, to me, that is like it's such a joy and it's such a good feeling when you see your your own staff members just kind of like elevating. Right. And that's that gives me a ton of joy. So.

Tim Stoddart: Yeah, me too. It's it's like my favorite part of doing what I do. OK, I'm actually going to continue to stick down this little side quest that we have, because I think one of the interesting things about this new idea of having a personal holding company is that it spreads you out thin. And I do think there is some relevance to that. It's difficult to become a master at any particular skill set or any particular, I don't know, industry, let's call it. If so much of your time is bounced back and forth of delegating tasks with the people that manage these actual brands. I think there's something to that and there are times where I take a step back and I think, am I just creating? Am I turning myself into a cog in my own machine? Am I losing that artistic ability that gives me passion and joy? I haven't felt that yet. Personally, I haven't, but I do think that when people critique this idea of, you know, having like a one person portfolio there, there is some relevance there. Have you felt that way at all?

Yong-Soo Chung: Um, you talking about like, um, like a solopreneur is having many projects or, or what do you mean?

Tim Stoddart: Well, okay. That's the perfect question for you to ask, because this is like semantics here a little bit, like we have to have clear definitions, but I think there's a difference between a solopreneur that is personally doing different things. You know, like you have a, a newsletter that you're doing about finance and like on the side, you have a YouTube channel about like Pokemon cards or whatever. Right. So that's one thing. And then on the other side, there's. It's more like a capitalist business mind where you just sit on top of your portfolio and your job is to delegate tasks. And so I'm almost explaining to you my point right now, which I struggle with in my head a little bit, but. I see my role as being a task delegator as very, very specific, and that's not the same as me trying to personally manage three or four different projects. And so I think that people get stuck in that and they decide to personally start managing different projects and that's where, where they get in trouble. So I feel like this whole conversation, I haven't actually been asking you questions. I've just been spitting out ideas that I've been thinking of. and asking for your feedback. So with that being said, what's your feedback on that?

Yong-Soo Chung: Yeah. This is an amazing topic and idea, Tim. So my evolution as an entrepreneur has been when I first launched my company, this is 2015, I was doing everything, right? It was an e-commerce shop. And so I was taking photos. I was working on the product description, literally everything. And then I hit a wall, right? And right around like, you know, $80,000 a month in sales, I hit a wall. I could not get beyond it. And so I was looking for any tool out there, like, you know, whatever, like all everything. And I literally like the only time that I was able to get beyond this was just by hiring. And so, um, you know, this happened very organically for me. And then when that happened, it was like, okay, so now, you know, I'm no longer operating the day to day. Right. I'm operating at a little bit of a higher level. Right. And I'm empowering. my employees to take on additional, uh, areas of the business. And then you, you, you keep leveling up to the point where now I have a general manager for that business. And, um, he's amazing. And, you know, I check in with him, you know, once a day and that's, that's pretty much it. And so now what's happened here is I'm no longer operating that business. I'm actually. allocating, like I'm, I've become a capital allocator. And so this idea of being an operator and then transforming yourself into a capital allocator, it's a really powerful idea that I'm actually like working through now in my head, which is like, um, you know, I don't want to be the operator. I want to be a capital allocator where I'm managing, you know, um, different areas of the business, but like. if one area of the business is doing well, then what can I do with that to turn another area of a business into a cash flowing machine? And so it's this idea of like, all right, so if you're working on the business, then it's constantly trying to go above the operational side. So that you're looking at your entire, I don't know, like how you spend your time and how you work on your business. You see it more of a capital allocation. Like where can I spend. you know, these resources to grow this area, you know, how can I make this area grow and what does it cost to do it? Right. And so like that shift really helped me get out of this thinking of like, oh, I need to be the one managing this project. Oh, I need to be the one, you know, doing this, too, because I'm the one that knows how to best do it. Like, yeah, no one is going to do 100 percent of what you want to do. That is that is impossible. And if you have that expectation, it will never work. You have to accept that, you know, someone coming in and they do like 80% of the job. I mean, that's a huge win for you because now you can focus your time and energy on growing another area of your business and get that to, you know, whatever, 80%. Like if you have a bunch of these 80%, I mean, that pie is much bigger than you working on one thing at a hundred percent. And so really like. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but just going from operator to capital allocator has really shifted, you know, my, my thinking on how I want to be an entrepreneur.

Tim Stoddart: So it makes perfect sense. It's very refreshing to hear somebody else say this because it's like, it takes time to think through this and figure out exactly what it is that you do. And so in my mind. I feel like I know what I'm doing now, but I still have a little bit of a difficult time, like articulating what those sequences of events are that gets you out from underneath. Um, yeah. So let's like, let's dig into this a little bit. And I want to dig into this particular topic because probably the most common question I get mostly through the copy blogger newsletter, when people respond to the email and they get back to me is how does this work? Like I'm a freelance writer. I spend all of my time writing or, you know, I'm a wedding photographer and like all of my time is spent at weddings and taking the pictures. It's the classical riddle in the e-myth, right? Like the cake, the baker is busy baking cakes when the business owner is, is figuring out how to get people to bake cakes for him. Um, that's, that's an analogy that's just come up a million times on the, on the podcast. And so let's, let's like start from the end and work backwards here. You were in a position where you had your e-commerce store. You got to 80 grand a month, which is an extremely successful business, right? If you wanted to, you could have just stopped there and kept working and it would have been good, but you wanted to free up your time. And so you've, you sequentially found like the first place to replace yourself. And so what was the first thing that you said? This is a waste of my time. I need to subcontract almost this particular, um, set of tasks. to get myself out of it? Like specifically, what was the first thing that you had to replace in your business?

Yong-Soo Chung: This is an amazing question. So. I used to categorize my time on a daily basis, like literally when I first started, my calendar was full of tasks, and so it would be like, you know, answering customer support emails would be like, you know, 30 minutes to an hour a day. Like I would categorize and compartmentalize my day to day into these little buckets and then I would like color code them and stuff. And then I'm like, all right, so how much time am I actually spending on this activity? And like, what's the ROI on this time spent? And so when I analyze that, you know, I thought that, well, also another factor here is like how how easily can I find someone or a solution to take over this time block? Right. And so The first thing that I really wanted to delegate was the customer support stuff, just because it was taking up a lot of my time. Obviously, it's important to keep talking to your customers, but you can get feedback in other ways. For example, we send out a survey after each purchase. And people fill out the survey and I get I see those surveys. So it's like a direct feedback mechanism. Right. So but I don't need to be like answering, hey, can I do a return? Like, I don't need to be the one doing all those. And so the first position that I thought would be an easy hire was the customer support side. And also this position can be remote. Right. So. So that was the first thing. And then the next thing that happened was, you know, remember I'm, I'm still taking these photos. And like, it's so funny, Tim, because I was taking photos from my house and like, I didn't have a professional setup or anything. So like literally my window of opportunity for taking photos was from like 10 to like 1130 in the morning, because that's when the sunlight was coming in at the perfect time.

Tim Stoddart: White poster board cut out on a square by the window. Yeah.

Yong-Soo Chung: It's so funny. My coffee table was the background of my product photos. And so early days, all the photos in the background, they're all my coffee table background. And so that I knew was like, all right, I need to find someone local because the products come here and we have a fast turnaround time for the product drops. And so obviously that limited I guess, a lot of the pool of talent, if you will. So I eventually found a photographer locally, and I was able to offload that task. And plus, I'm not a great editor in terms of, what is it, Lightroom? I was using Lightroom, but it was so basic. I'm not that great at it. And so someone else who's way better at it takes, I don't know, one third of the time that it takes me, it's like, that's a good trade off in terms of time spent and ROI, right? So, the photography was next, product photos. And then eventually, the buying of the inventory and the project management, which obviously was a little higher in terms of impact and decision making, that was also delegated. And so my job at that point was essentially direction of the company and what products should we bring in, what values do we have. all that stuff, which, you know, I'm still doing that now where I'm like, Hey, make sure that, you know, stick to our core, you know, values and strategy. Right. My thing is like, okay, now I'm working on strategy and like everything else, the pieces kind of move together. And the general manager of that business. is essentially was me at one point, but now he's the one that's talking to a photographer, coordinating with the customer support. And so it's kind of been an interesting way of like, I used to do all these roles very poorly, but then we found specialists in each role. And then I was able to be like general manager where I'm like managing these. And then now I've actually stepped above it and now we have someone else managing it. And now I'm just straight up, just strategy, you know, values, culture, things like that.

Tim Stoddart: How much of your time? Well, there's two ways I want to ask this question. I'm going to start with a question and then I'm going to follow up with a second question. Don't let me forget the second question. Cause it's very important when. When you do that, when you bring on people in your team, you're effectively lowering your profit margins. Right. Which is one of those like double-edged sword sides of scaling, because in order to get bigger, like you're sacrificing the present for a make-believe future that like may not ever happen the way that you want to. Right. But that's the game that we play. That's, that's like half the fun of it, in my opinion. And so, um, I mean, every business is different, so I don't know how. Like, uh, templatized, we can get this kind of process as we talk through it, but how did you know, like, okay, I brought in this person, I sacrificed some profit margins. Now the growth that I got from this thing brought me in a position where I can take another one of those hits again, so on and so on. So that is like a step up and then almost like two or three steps down and then like a bigger step up and then two or three steps down. What's that process like for you?

Yong-Soo Chung: Yeah, this is a really tough.

Tim Stoddart: And I'm writing down the second question right now.

Yong-Soo Chung: Yes, this is a really intuitive thing. So there's no right or wrong answer. It's more of a good feeling, right? I mean, you can look at your numbers, your P&L. And for me, really, when I made that first shift from the $80,000 a month, we were stuck at that level for a little while. And so when I hired, Like I didn't see much ROI. And plus you got to remember, like when someone comes in, like you're spending time, like training them up. So it's actually a negative, in a way, it's like a negative investment at the start because you're no longer spending time working on what's helping you grow. You're actually, you know, investing time into training somebody. Um, and so you don't, I mean, it depends on how fast they, you know, they, they pick up on things and like run with it. But, um, for me, I found like it took about a year when we were about flat growth. And then something just clicked and then we just really started accelerating. And so honestly, it's a it's a tough thing to answer because it's not so easy to just be like, all right, we're good now. Let's hire another person. You know, it's just more of a gut feeling of like, all right, like you know, I'm no longer, I'm not spending as much time like training as like this, you know, this new hire is really good now. And so like, where else can I like look at, but then like you look at your, your numbers and you're like, okay, well actually like, yeah, you're right. Like we're spending a lot of money now. Let's just cruise here for a little long, a little longer and see where our margins are. And then maybe revisit next month or next quarter, maybe even next year. And then at that point you look at your numbers, Hey, we're, we're, we're rolling, rolling along really nicely. What area can we grow in? And then you hire for that person. So it's more of a, you know, it's more of an art than a science, I would say, Tim. Uh, and that's why it's so difficult because everyone on the internet will be like, here's a framework. You got to do this. You got to do this. You got to do this, but like, it doesn't work that way. Right. You got to like really each situation is so different. So you gotta, you gotta really holding on your skills. Like, I don't know. It's like an intuition thing.

Tim Stoddart: I see frameworks almost like plans where. It's better to have a plan than not have one. And you write plans totally knowing that none of this is going to happen the way that you think it is. Like frameworks are kind of the same where it's like, okay, this is the way sequentially that I can map it out in my head. And then at the same exact time, just acknowledge that this is all total bullshit. And there's like no actual reality to it because the. The future of it all is so unpredictable. I think that's a really important part for people to understand. I also think it's important to understand the emotional aspect of it. So maybe I'm asking for my own sake, because this is something that I'm struggling with right now. But what about letting go of the control? Do you struggle with that at all? Like how have you coped with that?

Yong-Soo Chung: So yeah, this this is a tough one. So if you really so, for example, we have a French Bulldog business. Also, my wife and I run that together. Well, my wife is the general manager for it. And so she runs the e-commerce portion of it and the content creation for the marketing side. But. Um, we we really enjoy it like we have our two french bulldogs and um, you know, we they have one of them has 100 and what are the like 70 000 followers whatever on instagram so like it's enjoyable for us like it's really fun and so like it's just like, uh, you know, it's um it's something that I I don't mind like, you know, like helping her out and like we're staying at all these like we get invited to all these um like stays for free. Like we're going up to Sonoma in a couple of weeks. It's a five star hotel and we have to create content. We've got to write our blog post. So like, you know, it's the control aspect is really like up to you whether or not, you know, how much you enjoy it and then also like, you know, how much you're willing to give up. So it's a balancing act of like you know, there's some other businesses that like, for example, I have also have a, a three PL business. Right. And so that business, like I'm pretty much never in the warehouse. Like I have a really talented general manager and I'm not, I don't go in there ever. And we just chat once a week and it's, he manages it entirely. And so really it's up to you. Like, yeah, I've given up control pretty much. I'd say almost, I mean, I wouldn't say a hundred percent, but maybe like 80 to 90% of it. Like he's handling all of it. And so, and I don't mind that because I don't particularly, you know, want to be in a warehouse, like shipping items out for other e-commerce brands and stuff. So like, I think that's a personal question, whether or not it gives you fulfillment and joy of that activity. Uh, then, then go ahead and spend time on it because I mean, ultimately what's, what's the point in all this is like, you want to enjoy your time. Like you want to enjoy what you do. And so. If you want to do some of the work because it makes you happy, go for it. No one wants to stop you there. But if you want to you know, do a lot of other things. And like sometimes Tim also like your, your, your interests change and evolve over time. Right. Like, I don't know about you, but like I used to like, you know, it's my, my hobbies are also changing. And so like, as that also changes, like you can adapt and you can like shift how you spend your time also like maybe spend less time on, you know, the business that you, You're really into like a while back. Like it's just a matter of, um, just knowing yourself and like self-awareness really.

Tim Stoddart: You seem to have that much more under wraps than I do. I recently hired my first sales rep for Stodzy for my agency and letting go of this. It's been difficult. Like it's been way more difficult than I expected it to be just because this was like. I don't know. This was my thing as, as the leader of my team, it was always my responsibility, no matter what, no matter who we hired, it was up to me to get the deal side. And people could really count on me, right? Like, Hey, we lost a big client. Don't worry. Tim, we'll get another one. It's been 10 years of this. And, and so I'm, I'm telling you this story because you also said the phrase in your answer, you said, enjoy your time. And that perfectly relates to that second question that I was going to follow up on. that I didn't ask, because the reason why I like this idea of a personal holdings company is because I see it as I'm continuously buying my time back. And I mean that literally, like you said, you're a capital allocator, right? I build the systems, I build the processes, I get the right people in place, and then I trade money for time. Whereas in the beginning, you're doing exactly the opposite. You're trading time for money. It's been great. I feel very like blessed where I wake up in the mornings now and I sit down and I read my book and I don't have to get straight to the grindstone at, you know, five 30 in the morning, like I've been doing for the last 10 years. And it's been, in my opinion, the biggest value of, I think you nailed it. Lifestyle business 2.0, right? Like that's the lifestyle that I'm, I'm trying to get to. So when. if someone's listening to this and they're thinking, yeah, that sounds awesome. Like how do I buy back my time? When did that start happening for you? About how many years into it?

Yong-Soo Chung: Yeah. I mean, honestly, I wish I knew about it earlier and I wish I thought about this earlier because every entrepreneur should always be thinking about this. And so like now I'm always thinking, how do I, you know, if there's a task that happens more than once, Then I'm thinking, all right, it happened more than once. It's probably going to happen again. How do I make sure that I'm not the one doing this like admin task that happens every, I don't know, once or twice a month or like. So it's really, you know, it's I'm always thinking about it. And so it's it's. It's a balancing act between, you know, sometimes I enjoy doing some of this stuff. And it's kind of like, for example, like, you know, you and I both write on X slash Twitter. Like I enjoy writing and sharing my experiences. So like, I can't really, you know, outsource that. I mean, I guess there's like ghostwriters and stuff, but like, that's a little different. Like, you don't really get to your core, like, you know, experiences and all that. And so like, yeah, all right. I'm not going to outsource it and build a business, you know, just strictly on that. Like, but, you know, it's a it's a matter of like, I don't know, like, what can I, I guess, like delegate or what can I get off of my plate to free up more of my time? on things that I actually enjoy doing. And so if I enjoy just the writing piece of it, then, you know, I can outsource. Like, for example, like I have my, uh, an executive assistant who helps me with, um, my newsletter. So she sets up my entire newsletter each week. And all I have to do is just give her the links that I found interesting that week. Cause I have a little section that says, you know, interesting things that I found that week. And then I just have to write a little piece of a journal entry that I have. And then that's it. Everything else is set up. So, you know, she sets up the cross promotion stuff. She sets up everything. And so it really helps me focus on the thing that I enjoy most instead of like, you know, oh, I got to, you know, change up the links in the newsletter. I got to, you know, change the poll at the bottom of the newsletter. Like, I don't do that because that's more administrative. Same thing with my podcast. So my podcast, you know, my producer, I gave him an outline. I gave him a post for, you know, let's say a post that did really well on X. I'll send him that post and he will create a transcript for that post. And so all I have to do is go into a closet. So I actually record in my my wife's closet because of the soundproofing.

Tim Stoddart: That's amazing.

Yong-Soo Chung: And so I go into her closet, which I'm in right now, and I just record the podcast, the script, and then I send it to him and he works his magic. And so everything that I do is like, I really think about, okay, what do I actually need to do? Like, I can't outsource my own like podcast. Like I have to be, I'm the one that's actually doing it, right? So, but then I can outsource a lot of the other stuff behind the scenes stuff. And so, I think that's kind of where your listeners can really, you know, take away from this is like, OK, yeah, you may enjoy writing, but like if you enjoy writing, then like think about all the behind the scenes process that can be offloaded. Right. And so it's just a different way of thinking where you're thinking about your time and then I guess capital allocation. But it's also like capital in the form of time also. And so you're thinking about these things kind of like together. Yeah.

Tim Stoddart: Uh, the question, maybe it's not a question, is it? I don't know. I'm just going to say it. What I say to myself very often is what's the next most important thing I can do to create the most value for the least amount of resources. And it's, it's almost like you just ratchet down. Once you do it, you find the next one, you find the next one, you find the next one. And then what happens is the, the things get. smaller because the big improvements get made first and those big improvements have like the highest return on them. And then every little small improvement has like a lower return, but a higher time return. Right? So this is the kind of stuff where I said before, where. I've just been tinkering with these ideas in my mind for so long and trying to create that framework for it. Like you talked about, but, but it's also subjective. Uh, okay. So. Let's talk about marketing a bit, because in my view, and maybe you can prove me wrong here. The thing that I can't stop doing is growth. I think it's very difficult to have a personal holdings company if you don't have at least some kind of a sales mindset, some kind of a growth mindset, because it's very active. Like opportunities don't come to you. Like it seems in the movies, like you have to go hunt for, for opportunities. And so for me, I really see myself as what we talked about before, where I'm like, I wake up in the morning, I record all my loom videos. I send my tasks on to do list. I don't know what you use, like loom slack and to do list are basically my life. Okay. Like the most boring pieces of software ever. And that's, that's what I do first thing in the morning. And then in the afternoon, when I'm done eating and I work out and stuff like that, I'm I'm kind of tinkering around just looking for shit. Like what's a new opportunity? What's a new way that I can grow? So that's a little bit of context from my experience, but in your experience, like what is the one thing as the operator of your PHC that you feel you cannot delegate, you can't pull yourself out of?

Yong-Soo Chung: Yeah. So for me, that would be just capital allocation. And so I know we talked about this a lot, but basically I look at each piece of my business, the PHC is, you know, uh, the overall business and I'm constantly analyzing. Okay. Like where, like how, like what, what area of this, of the PHC, my personal holding company needs the most growth. Right. But then I think the difference here, um, Tim is like, You mentioned growth, and I totally agree. Obviously, growth is very important and you should think about it a lot. But for me, I'm not the one doing those growth things. And so if I identify like, OK, we need more clients, let's say, on GrowthJet or 3PL. I need to set up systems and then the system can be either hiring someone or I'm working with an agency or whatever it is. Like I need to create some kind of system to generate that growth, but I don't want to be the one that's, um, you know, um, doing the, the outreaches and whatnot, like that should be someone else. And so what I'm thinking about on a day to day basis is like, wow. looking at it holistically, my company, the PHC, and then identifying areas that has the highest, you know, ROI or opportunity. And of course there's also a cost to it. Like, okay, you know, if I want to build something crazy, I'm going to have to hire like a ton of people. Like, yeah, that might not be the right, I mean, maybe amazing opportunity, but like very costly also. Right. So it's a balancing act of finding like the right opportunity with the highest ROI on it. And then I'm not the one doing that. I need to find a solution to plug that in to see what happens there. And sometimes I'm wrong. I've been wrong a lot of times where I would be like, OK, we're going to do this and try it out. It doesn't work out that way. It's a theory that I have that I want to test. And then it doesn't work out. And then you have to kind of be like, all right, well, that that didn't work out. But like, I still want to invest in this area. So I'm going to find a different way of doing it. Like, it's always, you know, testing and iterating. And so, like, my main thing on a daily basis is really capital allocation that not only on the money side, but also my own time. Like, I want to make sure that I'm doing stuff that I enjoy doing. So.

Tim Stoddart: That's fascinating, because I think it's so cool how these new businesses and these new ideas emerge and there's still ways that people mold them to their own personalities in the way that you and I do. We talked about before the first thing you replaced. The first thing I replaced in anything I do is the money. And that sounds crazy to people, but I just, I hate it. I don't even know how much money are in my bank accounts at any given moment. I know that sounds ridiculous, but it's just the last thing I ever want to think about. All my finances are completely automated. You know, the whole thing just runs without me. I, it's, it's kind of paradoxical because money is, is like the motive of, of what I do. And I'm very clear about that. Like I do all of this to make money, but at the same time, it's like the last thing that I care about, you know? And so it's fascinating that you see it from that lens and I see it from You know, like a hunter lens, maybe I'm just, maybe it's cause I'm have like a nervous disposition, you know, and I'm always kind of looking around for, for the next thing to do. So that's great. Um, okay. Last question here before we start wrapping this thing up. And this is like a, more of a personal question. Do you ever worry or feel weird about the fact that you get more and more free time? The more your company grows and the more successfully you outsource some of these tasks, because I struggle with that, man. Like there's, there's days where I sit down on my computer. I'm like, there's nothing I have to do. And so then I think, okay, let me find something to do. And then I think, why am I doing that? I'm just going to get in the way and create problems and, you know, basically throw a wrench into the machine for my own reason. So I know this is more of a personal question, but how do you like deal with the free time that you've bought yourself?

Yong-Soo Chung: This is a really interesting question. I when I look back, so there was a point in time, I think this is in twenty twenty one. When I looked at my wife and I said. Sandy, her name is Sandy, Sandy, I feel like I'm basically retired now, like and she was like, what do you mean? Like you're you know, you have your business and stuff. And I was like, I can literally just not do a lot and things will just be fine. Like, I don't, you know, I'm not, I don't have to do anything on a daily basis. And, uh, to be honest, like I, there was like, it was maybe like six to eight months when I was just, I was focused on, like, I wasn't even focused on the business. It was like, my mind was wandering and like, obviously I checked in with, you know, my, my team and stuff, but like my mind was kind of wandering elsewhere. And so, I don't know, it's almost like, okay, well, you know, we go through these seasons in life. And like, I truly believe that. And so like, you know, when I thought about that, I'm like, all right, well, this is where I am. But like, is this the end game? Like, am I done here? Like, you know, is this how I'm gonna just be for the rest of my life? And like, you know, it wasn't. And so after that period, I'm like, all right, I need to get going here. And so actually, The reason why I started First Class Founders, which is my newsletter and podcast, is because I was feeling like I needed something more. I needed a new project. I needed something to get going again. when I launched the podcast, like no one was listening and it was like crickets. And so that I mean, honestly, like Tim, I work a ton on growing my personal brand now. And like some days I'm like, oh, my God, like what I what did I do? Like I used to just not do anything and be happy with it. But now I'm like writing. I'm like writing at like nine, 10 p.m., like trying to, you know, get a post going for the next day and like And it just sometimes it's a grind sometimes. And I'm like, all right, well, I had the other lifestyle before when I didn't really need to do anything. And so I know what that lifestyle is like. But then I decided I was too bored. And so I decided to launch a podcast and newsletter. And now I'm like so busy in a good way. But like, I'm so busy now that it's it's kind of a funny thing that, you know, it's just life is kind of like that, where it's like these extremes where, I don't know, just got nothing going on. You're like, what do I do now? And then. You've got a ton of stuff happening. You're like, oh my God, like this is too much. And so it's like, you know, I'm always struggling with that balance. And so, um, you know, I, I guess for me, it was like more about, um, like, you know, I had my, my time off time off quote unquote, like I was just chilling. And then I realized, Hey, this is not, this is not the end game. Right. I can't just be chilling like this, like. It's just, it's just too boring or whatever. Like I need more, more, more than this. And so I like put myself in the, in the fire again. And now I'm like in the middle of it and you know, it's just kind of the way things are like, you know, it's a seasons of life.

Tim Stoddart: Like I said, it's very refreshing talking to you because it seems like we're in very similar. Positions. I'm spending most of my time right now, just building my personal brand. And if you would have asked me three years ago, I would have laughed at that idea. Like I could care less about how many Twitter followers I have. And now it's just like, I need to do something and I don't know what is going to come of this, but I think something will come of it, you know? And so it's just almost this blind faith of like, let's keep putting myself out there. Let's keep putting myself out there. finding opportunities and then whatever is going to come my way is going to come my way. So I'm, uh, man, I just appreciate you being so willing to have a good open conversation about this. I know this wasn't the most like technical marketing and business podcast. It was a lot of like philosophy and, and just different ways of thinking going on behind what you and I are trying to build. I think this is the future. Like I really do. There's a Seth Godin. concept about long tail, where the more internet becomes, right? Like the more and more internet is in our lives, the longer, the long tail of stuff gets. So then everything has these little mini communities. And I'm starting to see that with people as well, where like individual people are going to continue to be more and more many media companies and many businesses. And I think you and I are on the front end of that. Yes. And I think more and more people are going to follow down this, this trail down this path.

Yong-Soo Chung: Yeah. I, I, um, totally agree with you. And one thing that I didn't mention about the personal holding company is that the model that I see is that the personal brand is distribution for your entire, all the businesses that you have. And so essentially you're the one, and you're going to do this through storytelling and all that stuff, but like, you're the one that's going to be promoting all these services. And because you've built this trust with your audience. They're going to be like, OK, oh, Tim started a new, I don't know, like e-commerce brand. Like, I'm going to check it out because I trust him. And like, you know, I've been following his work for a while and I want to check it out. And so like you become the marketing engine, the distribution mechanism. for all of your future ventures and projects. And so that's why I'm also building my personal personal brand, because I want to be in a position where, you know, next month I want to launch a new thing. Then I can be like, hey, here's my here's my new service and people will be like checking it out. And so it's a really interesting time that we live in now where. Uh, you know, you can literally make money on the internet doing anything as long as you have. you know, a personal brand that, uh, the trust I think is a crucial component is, is, you know, like your audience, they, they really have to believe in your, in your, in your, your vision and your values. And also like, they just have to like you. Right. And so, uh, personal brand is a huge component of, of what I'm building for the next phase of my, my journey. And it sounds like we're kind of on the, on the same page there. Um, Yeah. It's so it's, it's definitely, it's definitely an important component that I think that, um, all entrepreneurs should have a personal brand in my opinion.

Tim Stoddart: Yeah. That's part of me that wishes, uh, I would have started with that because I totally agree. It's, it's like the spoke in the wheel where all the opportunities that have come my way, including opportunities that like, I didn't even try to get. It's just, you talk to more people, you build more trust with people, you build your reputation in a certain industry, and then things come your way. Um, and I have plenty of examples of that. Maybe we could talk about it, uh, next time we talk. Um, cause that's, that's certainly the centerpiece as to what I'm building as well. And I'm, I think there's a lot there. Well, man, we got through this whole conversation. It's been almost an hour. Time flew by. I didn't even mention the names of your actual businesses or or your newsletter. So before we sign off, please tell people where they can find you. And I'm almost embarrassed that we got to the end of this before I noticed that. So apologies, but please tell people where they can find you.

Yong-Soo Chung: Yeah, so for your audience, First Class Founders is the podcast. So firstclassfounders.com. And you can sign up for the newsletter there as well. And so I guess that's probably the best spot. I'm also on X at Yong Soo Chung. Y-O-N-G-S-O-O-C-H-U-N-G. And yeah, you can shoot me a DM. I talk to, I check my DMs frequently. And so if you enjoyed this conversation, just shoot me a DM and I would love to talk to you.

Tim Stoddart: Amazing. Uh, all of that will be on the show notes of this podcast episode. In addition, you talked about your, your bulldog company and your e-commerce store. I didn't even necessarily get into the details of that, but I'll make sure all the links are on the show notes of this podcast to check out the show notes, to learn more about young Sue, go to copy blogger pod.com. You can find everything there, including transcripts of this episode, in case you are hearing impaired. Uh, man, like I said, I really, really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for coming on. And, um, I'm just so excited for you and like your journey. You, you, you have like such a good head on your shoulders and, um, you're just going to do great things. I know you are. So I'm really excited to follow you. Thanks for coming on.

Yong-Soo Chung: Thanks, Tim. I appreciate it. And a huge fan of this podcast. So like, honestly, like, thanks so much for having me, man. I appreciate it.

Tim Stoddart: Thanks, man. Yeah, my pleasure.